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On the German Philosophy tribe I've been considering the Frankfurt school critique Heidegger, and the Existentialists in general, for their project of authenticity.
This has gotten me thinking, because in my view authenticity is extremely important. When I consider that idea critically, I see that to some degree my focus on authenticity is pre-reflective. I have a visceral response to discourse of authenticity and an innate impulse to move in that direction.
I think it's high time I put it on the table, and this seems like a good forum to start.
My basic position is that authenticity is of fundamental importance to treating human problems, both on an individual and societal level. It is my belief that often when people behave in destructive ways, they are often not being honest with themselves about what they are doing. To put it another way, when people understand the truth of what they want in the world, they are less likely to cause suffering for themselves or others.
I realize there is a core optimism at the heart of this belief, which is a little funny because I am something of a cynic and a misanthrope. However, one can draw systematic empricial support for this view. The foundation of psychoanalysis, for example, is that when people understand the truth of what is going on in their lives it has an immensely therapeutic effect.
I would also add that when people act in coarsely destructive ways, such as certain American politicians I could name, it is often accompanied by coarse and obvious instances of dishonesty. On the contrary, the rare politicians I have seen who seem highly ethical, like Senator Russ Feingold from Wisconsin, exhibit a deep commitment to truthfulness.
Of course, it is not necessarily the case that more ethical behavior will lead to less suffering, but I believe that by definition ethical behavior at least works TOWARDS less suffering.
So there it is - the short version of my conviction that authenticity is the ground of ethical and therapeutic human action. I'd love to debate it on an ideas level.
PS I have cross-posted this idea to a couple different tribes, but I don't think that is inappropriate because I'm willing to carry on the discussion independently in each Tribe.
This has gotten me thinking, because in my view authenticity is extremely important. When I consider that idea critically, I see that to some degree my focus on authenticity is pre-reflective. I have a visceral response to discourse of authenticity and an innate impulse to move in that direction.
I think it's high time I put it on the table, and this seems like a good forum to start.
My basic position is that authenticity is of fundamental importance to treating human problems, both on an individual and societal level. It is my belief that often when people behave in destructive ways, they are often not being honest with themselves about what they are doing. To put it another way, when people understand the truth of what they want in the world, they are less likely to cause suffering for themselves or others.
I realize there is a core optimism at the heart of this belief, which is a little funny because I am something of a cynic and a misanthrope. However, one can draw systematic empricial support for this view. The foundation of psychoanalysis, for example, is that when people understand the truth of what is going on in their lives it has an immensely therapeutic effect.
I would also add that when people act in coarsely destructive ways, such as certain American politicians I could name, it is often accompanied by coarse and obvious instances of dishonesty. On the contrary, the rare politicians I have seen who seem highly ethical, like Senator Russ Feingold from Wisconsin, exhibit a deep commitment to truthfulness.
Of course, it is not necessarily the case that more ethical behavior will lead to less suffering, but I believe that by definition ethical behavior at least works TOWARDS less suffering.
So there it is - the short version of my conviction that authenticity is the ground of ethical and therapeutic human action. I'd love to debate it on an ideas level.
PS I have cross-posted this idea to a couple different tribes, but I don't think that is inappropriate because I'm willing to carry on the discussion independently in each Tribe.
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Re: authenticity
Wed, June 28, 2006 - 12:17 AM>To put it another way, when people understand the truth of what they want in the world, they are less likely to cause suffering for themselves or others.
How is this self awareness or understanding best cultivated?
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Re: authenticity
Wed, June 28, 2006 - 12:52 AMwhat is authenticity to you? is it that "people understand the truth of what they want in the world, they are less likely to cause suffering for themselves or others."? is it ethical behavior? a deep commitment to truthfulness?
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Re: authenticity
Wed, June 28, 2006 - 6:55 AMit seems that part of what you are pointing to is that the more honest we are in our relationship with ourselves, the more likely we are to be able to relate to the world without imposing our selfish needs on the other, which is an aspect of keeping our narcissism in check, so leads to more ethical behavior.
regarding optimism and psychoanalysis: Jung postulated that the psyche has a natural healing impulse that leads towards integration and wholeness through a path opened when attending to the symptom. its our fuckedupidnesses that lead us be aware of the areas in ourselves that need development, and if we attend to the symptom, it will show us the way. to do this requires some fortitude, and according to Bion, faith. I would agree with that, it takes alot of faith in the underlying rightness of the universe to move counter to collective norms with conscious intention.
Of course people can move counter to the social ethos without alot of self aware insight, and there is no test of good-mental-health required to be a social activist, but still, some sort of truth and faith in that truth must move one from deep inside..... which points again to the value of anaysis of ones own personality/character/psycic makeup, thereby increasing awareness of unconscious tendencies, which brings us closer to our integrity and the authentic as we move out and into the world ....
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 7:58 AMA few haphazard comments on a concept I dislike.
1. Authenticity is a measure of conformance to a standard, but which? --- or do you have something else altogether in mind?
2. I don't think there is a truth of what is going on in people's lives; I just think there are more and less sensitive and enabling ways of looking at things.
But if being more sensitive and more able doesn't ground out in The Truth About Oneself, and I don't think it does, then a notion of authenticity defined in terms of private truth isn't very interesting and is perhaps even oppressive.
Perhaps we could identify authenticity with sensitivity and skill, but this would seem to push the concept beyond its familiar use --- which at least to me suggests that it is perhaps not all that useful.
3. I think truthfulness is a nice thing to have, but I don't think it needs anything more complicated than a commitment to avoid misleading anyone to whatever extent one's sensitivity and skill permits.
4. Morality. It sounds to me like you are trying to set up a moral core in the individual which the individual can be true to or not and which he knows he is being true to when he feels authentic (whatever that means).
This is an attractive idea in the same way that grounding morality in God is an attractive idea, but I don't think it works out.
Notice how the other story goes: there is a moral code in the heavens which the individual can be true to or not and which he knows he is being true to when he feels himself in a state of grace (whatever that means).
I don't think either of these ways of getting morality work, because I think that at the end of the day the psychoanalysts can no more agree on The Truth of The Self than the priests can agree on the Truth of God. Everyone's best intuitions run in a thousand different directions.
Of course, each project claims that this is not so. If the believer is not sure that his visceral responses and innate impulses are quite in tune, he can check with his favourite book or his priest in much the same way that your authenticolyte might read his favourite philosopher or talk with his therapist.
And yet one suspects that this is just so much back-patting. Get enough of it going on and each person in the circle might come to feel that he's getting his affirmation from something more lofty than the fellow behind him. "Somewhere back there is the warm and loving hand of God (Inner Truth, Reason, or what have you)!" But I don't think that's so.
I suspect that the most likely product of a commitment to authenticity, as with its religious analogue, is creation of and conformity to a community and tradition the conventions of which come to normalise, ground, and certify our visceral responses and innate impulses.
Not that there's nothing more to our responses and impulses than convention; I don't think that at all. Just that you can't get anything so crude as a morality (philosophy, or religion) out of them without invocking the simplifying power of community and convention.
5. Authenticity, self-responsibility, respect for an idea of the true self, &c are quite useful from 15 on to intellectual maturity, whenver that hits, if it does, during which time they serve to win us some space from character, custom, and circumstance in which we can exercise ourselves at becoming more sensitive and skilful at negotiating the complexities of life than irreflective conformity permits.
Later on, I think adherence to an inflated notion of the self as a source of authority and a norm of character and conduct just gets in the way of sensitive and skilful negotiation of complexities. At some point reflection wants to draw the notion of the true self (the will of God, the nature of Reality, &c) fidelity to which justified and encouraged us in over-throwing convention and taking ourselves into our own hands itself into question, as a doubtful convention of our own intellectual practise --- as a shadow of conformity which rebellion sneaks in under.
At this point, I feel authenticity (righteousness, representational fidelity, &c) ceases to be of central interest in the work we do on ourselves and the world.
7. That said, if you want a notion of authenticity, I think it makes most sense as the front end for a sort of vitalism. Here's what I have in mind.
When a young person chooses in the face of social pressure to do otherwise what seems most green and growing to him, it is useful to speak of authenticity. He is listening to his organic sense of where his health and well-being lie and not ripping himself off by buying into someone else's programme.
Here "authenticity" means listening to the dictates of one's own organism, in the most comprehensive sense; it means taking the path which the sum of one's biology, experience, imagination, relations, reasoning, &c reveals as most life-giving.
8. The problem with this account is that the organism is not to be trusted!
At 15, the conflict between inner compass and outward conformance is often clear enough. Later on, organic impulses no longer seem like the sort of things that are easily separated from the ecologies of influence in which one lives, nor always the most sensible sources of guidance through the tangle.
*Shrug*. If my own experience is anything to go by ... well, my own deepest impulses now often direct me to subordinate my impulses generally to dialogue with others, to experimentation, and to shared commitment --- to community and its compromises. Do you see what I'm saying?
Suppose authenticity means being true to my own organic sense of where healthfulness and well-being lie for me. Okay. But then what is there to make of authenticity when my organic sense of my own health tells me to listen to rumblings of the wider ecology? when that self starts to experience itself as a node of dense interconnectivity in a wider cybernetic system whose own visceral responses and innate impulses its well-being is inextricably tied up with?
At this point, authenticity begins to seem not all that useful. The hard ground of the self has fallen out from under it, as a nourishing but time-limited fiction, and, in the softer ground of the network story, authenticity ceases to look like a sensible measure of well-being. As morality starts to creep out to edge of the branches of the self it discovers a whole arboreal ecology ....
9. Perhaps you can push me on to another story in which authenticity regains its central role in evaluating well-being. In the meantime, though, my guess is that, if we want to promote morality, we can do this best by forgetting about concepts which might legislate and evaluate it --- "The psychologists will reveal our true selves to us and then we must all get in line! Yay!" --- and just facilitate sensitivity, awareness, knowledge about oneself and the world as one's own experience and imagination permit.
The idea is quite simple. When we are more sensitive, we're better able to judge, to feel, and to act with discrimination. We have a more fine-grained relationship to life, and so are more able to work out our needs and desires and relationships &c &c in ways that don't involve tripping ourselves or others up too much --- and more able to see the benefits of not doing so.
What more do you want that authenticity gets you? --- because the costs of giving it any sort of defensible content seem rather high, and I suspect its names are "alienation" and "oppression".
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Re: authenticity
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 11:51 AMi keep thinking it would be helpful if we all had the some definition of this construct "authenticity".....and how exactly are we using it? in regards to the therapeutic relationship Rogerian style? in research evaluation? what???? -
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 8:14 PMAuthenticity measures something. (Heft of soulstuff? Breadth of spleen?) I agree that it would be nice to hear what others have in mind when they say having lots of authenticity matters.
I tried to show that various proposals I picked out of Barnaby's post don't work out so well.
(( I don't think authenticity tracks fidelity to the true self, because I can't find mine and all those who claim to have done so seem worse off than I. And I don't think authenticity is morally interesting if it merely tracks the organism's fidelity to what its own judgement of its best interests, because I think that this sort of judgement, in its maturity, pushes us beyond ourselves into communal and ecological process in a way which makes self-insistence obsolete and even repugnant and authenticity an irrelevant measure. Instead we end up with something like interpersonal sensitivty and skill, and perhaps also faith or commitment. ))
My suspicion is that any attempt to make authenticity more substantial than an act of affirmation isn't going to pan out. I don't think we're going to find anything interesting for authenticity to measure. Heidegger and his French nephews never did. Instead I think we're just going to admit the word is just a fancy, if sometimes salutary, way of saying "That's right; way to go!"
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 9:45 PMI was sitting on the bus and got to thinking about your question.
I've been thinking about authenticity against the background noise of Western philosophy, where it is (whatever it is) usually conceived as an individual matter. But you mentioned authenticity as a property of the therapeutic relationship. I haven't thought about authenticity in these terms. Could you say a bit more about this? -
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 6:52 AMI wrote something on the Erich Fromm discussion in the Marxism and Psychoanalysis tribe that is relevant to this discussion. Those interested can find it at marx-and-freud.tribe.net/threa...376d2f
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Re: authenticity
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 12:12 PMAs somewhat of a cynic myself, I tend to gravitate towards an understanding of "authenticity" (i.e., trust-worthiness, reliability, believability, verifiability, etc.) comes from as something that arises directly from our own felt-sense of mortality. There is something that is unmistakable about REAL dangers or threats, REAL suffering and pain, and REAL concerns for well-being and safety. This is, to some unfortunate degree, somewhat of a rarity in this, our post-modern, aperspectival, multi-dimensional philosophical collage of DIY cut-and-paste "realitIES." However, when one has the direct confrontation with one's own (or someone intimately close to one's self's) intimate experience with mortality, there can be little question about what is real and true, and therefore what it means to be authentic. It can then be illustrated as something as simple as a facial expression, or hand-gesture, or artwork. It so viscerally embodied by the sick and dying that, if one were to drop into one's being in the presence of suffering, authenticity naturally arises from that pure awareness. It is not possible to occupy such a space without it. And yet, while we still live in a world in which pure being / pure consciousness is not something that is inherited, but cultivated, and not venerated, but exploited, then the natural progression will develop out of the western mind's tendency towards 'thinking' and therefore distracting oneself from what is actual here-and-now, with us in every moment.
Or so I "think" -- co-founder, Authentic Unifying Media(TM) www.authentic-unifying.com/ -
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Fri, July 7, 2006 - 3:10 AMI enjoyed your post, but I don't agree with you.
1. I don't buy your anti-intellectualism. Thinking is one of the things that is here and now. But in any case, who said any of this had to do with thinking? When I say that I can find no ground for authenticity, I don't imply that I have limited my search to thought. One way to explain away my claim not to have found what you claim to have found is to say that I am looking in the wrong places or in the wrong way. I prefer another explanation.
2. I don't have a problem with REAL danger, suffering, pain, concern, &c. Big stuff. I also don't have a problem with REAL drinking coffee on lazy Sunday afternoons, masturbating in the shower, tasting mangoes, &c. Also big stuff. In fact, I'm so with you in "thinking" that REALness is what we've got --- "Oooh, yes, REAlness!" --- that I can't for the life of me figure out why you insist on making a big deal out of it.
3. But if the experience of masturbating in the shower is as REAL as the experience of suffering, and if authenticity is keeping things REAL, then it seems to me that nothing is not authentic --- or, "authenticity" becomes a club which you use when you want to beat someone into forgetting that some of the things they like are REAL and getting in line with the things you REALly like.
(( I don't have a problem with organising line-ups. Some of us have experienced, felt, and thought more and more widely than others. We might have some good "thoughts" about what arrangements of things are likely to work out well. I just don't like the beating part. I especially don't like the idea of a therapist giving his client a club --- Authenticity(TM) --- and instructing her to beat herself with it. ))
4. But why should I orient myself to suffering or concern when I could orient myself to sex --- or food, or leisure? Is there something about "our own felt-sense of mortality" that is more important to how we are in the world than our sense of transcendence? or our sense mastery and power? or our sense of frivolity? my love of sleep? her obsession with shoes? and so on?
If you can tell me a story about why some REALities REALly matter (and others don't), I'd like to hear it. I think what you've said is compatible with a story of this sort.
(( I suppose you're stuck with Buddhism --- "Suffering is the big things around here!" --- but then I also think that if you follow that along far enough you won't get anything like authenticity; just a bunch of complicated philosophical scaffolding leading to a pretty darn simple commitment to kindness. ))
Unfortunately, I also think what you've said is compatible with the story I've told, which is that you have a visceral response of REALness to some things more than to others and think that others ought to feel the same. Is this story unfair? --- and do you have a better one? -
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Fri, July 7, 2006 - 11:37 PMI was told privately that my worries are drivel. I think this is serious stuff. I work with children and youth. Talk about being true to yourself and ideas like authenticity are thrown about quite a lot. I worry that these ideas are not very helpful a lot of the time.
I think I can articulate my worry clearly: these ideas are like empty boxes into which we put our own deepest desires, strongest characteristics, most moving experiences, &c. The problem: we pass these boxes on to others believing and asking them to believe that what is inside is not just our stuff but the soul-stuff of humanitiy. I think this is not very helpful.
Here is an important debate. If someone claims, taking Dan's claim as an example, that experiences of death and dying can reveal to us what is most important for humanity --- something that we can put in the box that belongs to all of us --- then I think we need to talk about this. Does Dan's stuff belong to all of us? Or does it only belong to some of us?
It it belongs to all of us, or most of us even, then it might be helpful to hand out this box to others. If it doesn't, then passing around the box as if it did belong to all of us is dishonest --- and not likely to be helpful to many who are duped.
(Of course, saying that something only matters to so of us doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter to all of us, and that we should despise anyone who markets it as if it did.)
Say I'm handing out clothing. If my box says "One size fits all: authentic human wear!" but the clothing inside only fits some of us (and makes the rest feel fat or wimpy, too cold or too hot, &c) or is covered with labels that makes all of us advertisements for what matters to only some, then my charity should be called into question. I should be polite and honest enough to relabel my box "Scott-wear: put on at your own risk!"
I don't think anyone is required to justify her vision of authenticity on a public forum, but I do hope that those who are passing on such a vision to others *from a position of authority* will at least take steps to ensure their own honesty in this work --- the most important of which, in my opinion, is public, non-parochial inquiry into the truth of one's claims.
I don't think this is drivel.
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Re: authenticity
Fri, July 14, 2006 - 7:39 AMI've had a quote pasted to my studio wall for so many years I'm not sure where it came from; it's simple but I believe applies strongly to the idea of authenticity.
"What I want to make clear is that creative living involves, in every detail of its experience, a philosophical dilemma - because, in fact, in our sanity we only create what we find."
So, what do we create in our insanity? Avoidance, unrealistic ideals, projection of inaccuracies?
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Re: authenticity
Mon, July 17, 2006 - 11:06 PMis it in my sanity or insanity that i authentically create my neurosis..... ?
in my neurosis dwells my anxiety
in my anxiety i think i have lost myself, but i am also so very with myself, so overwhelmed by existance... that i know i authentically exist. i am the one in this state of uncomfortable mind... breathe.
if i can be in my anxiety when it is here and just be, is this not authenticity?
culturally, we dont seem to usually consider anxiety nor neurosis to be "the authentic self" but anxiety is archetypal, a characteristic of complex systems with high potential for change.... so there seems to be, walking about in parts of this discussion, the assumption that "authentic" is in the domain of "good, pleasent, pleasing." I'm not sure thats true. aggression is authentic and people got alot of it with little space to work it out... so instead of working it out, we pretend its not there with lots of new age ideas and try to make ourselves "better" people. better people it seems are more authentic cuz they are more self actualized or something.... but im not so sure. if you are always seeking, can you be at home? be at rest? know yourself? does seeking keep us looking for something we already have? and what about the ways in which seeking and self betterment become escape routes from the pain of reality?
in my insanity i must companion myself in ways i do not have to when sane. in a way, my sanity, being a lower maintenance state of mind, requires less attention and allows the decent into unconsciousness, which leads to less sanity, which requires more attention, which renews sanity, so ....
in my insanity, i create my sanity. in my sanity, my insanity.
peice o' work!
Peggy, that interaction between creating and finding reminds me of Winnicott's notion of transitional space. Does the baby find the mommy or create the mommy? -
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Re: authenticity
Tue, July 18, 2006 - 8:06 AMthe baby finding the mommy - well i think whoever is available in the moment is the mommy - but once associated as mommy by smell - then identified (found ) must first be presented to be identified as such...this is sorta the chicken or egg question.
So, do we seek out or do we wait for opportunity to present itself? I believe in our sanity we seek out - in our insanity we wait.
yes, we all (i hope) become lost - but, how do we become lost is we are not seeking? an uncomfortable mind is not always a mind lacking sanity.
society has show what happens when nothing is presented and a child does not learn to seek (lack of positive reinforcement) - feral children, emotionally abused children. Are they self actualized, authentic?
i think you can be authentic and mean, cruel, hateful, kind, warm & fuzzy but you don't have to be all of the above. how can we be authentic if we are working in preexisting conditions that we take off the shelf as if shopping in the grocery store - i guess we all put different things in our carts - this is the human element tribe survives on...we are all checking out each others baskets in hopes of connecting with people working the same shelves. Are we authentic - yes & no.......
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Wed, July 19, 2006 - 7:12 AMBarb,
Clearly you have some idea of what authenticity is about, since you say some things are authentic and others are not. But I can't tell from what you say what that idea is and why I should think it is significant in my life or in the lives of others.
Unless you tell me more about that, I can't see how to go about using authenticity in my life or with others, or whether I can do so honestly. Can you say more about that? -
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Re: authenticity
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 10:07 AMScott, I cannot try to convince you that my idea of what makes authenticity authentic is of any value. Several earlier posts mention the idea that "authenticity" is a basket or box that we put into what is meaningful personally for each of us, but that one size fits all is not the reality of this expedition..... That seems about right, given the groove of this thread.
I just wanted to make the point that alot of times people articulate "being authentic" as something wonderful, as if it means you speak from the heart, or are self actualized, or try to help others etc. etc. lots of positively valenced ideas. While this may be true, seems to be the common usuage, and is found a helpful idea by many, including myself; in addition, i suspect it is only a partial truth. That was my point, that assumptions underlying authenticity as "good" might want to be brought to light and explored some...
Whatever "authenticity" is I'm not so sure it's all love and light. I do suspect it has something to do with not worrying about other's ideas of what it means to be authentic, that we must each walk our own path, often not that well trodden road of social convention and ideals.... but that's just my suspicion and i wont try to sell you these goods to fill your own life. that seems kinda contra-indicated given the basket we are exploring....
so along these lines, the question raises its blood red eyes to ask, is suicide authentic or not authentic, what about shadow, what about unconscious tendencies and actions?
Is authenticity the object or container? Is it something we use, something we seek, some internal compass, or actually no thing at all? Is it an idea we comfort ourselves with? a judgement we bludgen others with? is it highly personal or totally contextual? is it either/or or both/and? lots of assumptions in this word and its uses. . . .
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Re: authenticity
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 5:10 PMsuicide....interesting thought with authenticity ....
Edith Wallace quoted the Gospel of St. Thomas (I'm not a religious person but the quote is good) in an article titled "Healing Through the Visual Arts".
"If you bring forth that which is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
I agree "being authentic " is not all peaches and cream but, I think a person should not expect life to be all rosey - a little unrealistic. I believe authenticity is more connected with self value, self acceptance and not something that can be given - being honest and accepting who you are and willness to take that path and willingness to change the path if it is painful.
According to St. Thomas I guess suicide, unonscious tendencies & actions would be "not bring forth that which is within you" and would be considered not being authentic.
Barb, some times you make my brain hurt - I'm starting to think I'm a little into the pain....I like the new icon; looks a little like a joining of a 3 sided mantra and something my children watch on saturday morning cartoons ..
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Fri, July 21, 2006 - 11:56 PM>>Scott, I cannot try to convince you that my idea of what makes authenticity authentic is of any value. Several earlier posts mention the idea that "authenticity" is a basket or box that we put into what is meaningful personally for each of us, but that one size fits all is not the reality of this expedition..... That seems about right, given the groove of this thread.<<
I think you can try to convince me that your idea of authenticity is valuable to others. And I think that if you are offering it to others from a position of authority that you should try to convince at least yourself that it is.
Those posts about authenticity being a container were mine. The point was that, if you cannot define authenticity in a way that makes it fit most people, then, whatever it's private value to you, it is an unsuitable norm to ask your clients to conform to (assuming you are a therapist).
I agree with you that the concept is confusing, and I think some of the questions you ended your post with are good ones to think about for someone who is using this concept in their therapeutic practise.
>>so along these lines, the question raises its blood red eyes to ask, is suicide authentic or not authentic, what about shadow, what about unconscious tendencies and actions? <<
I think people should avoid these sorts of questions until they have an account of what they want authenticity to mean. Otherwise "authenticity" will just become a box into which they put the ideas they already have about suicide in order to make those ideas seems more important to themselves and others. This seems dangerous. It encourages confusion.
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Re: authenticity
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 5:21 PMdo you believe authenticy is a self bloated americanism way of justifing our ego? It (authenticity) strongly goes against the grain of many other religious belief systems - we are associating authenticy with self fulfillment - where does it fit in eastern philosophy? or does it fit at all - should we bother.....have we beaten the dead horse? -
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Sat, July 22, 2006 - 12:07 AMI think self-fulfillment is pretty central to most religious systems, and I think most religious systems have something like the notion of authenticity. (But then religious systems are complicated beasts. They have just about everything!)
I don't know whether authentiicity is a self-bloated American way of justifying our ego. (I don't think the idea of the ego makes much sense either a lot of the time.) Maybe I suspect it is often used in that way, yes, but my main point is just that concepts like auhenticity and ego, taken for granted, make for sloppy thinking.
The problem with having weighty words without much substance is that they tend to become receptacles for the prejudices and assumptions of those who use them, occasionally maliciously, but most often just out of simple human frailty.
I think Existentialism is a substantial within the context of the philosophical tradition and times in which it arose. I think in the context of therapeutic and spiritual practise it has mostly become empty jargon. A source of authority without any substance and so without any responsibility. -
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Re: authenticity
Sat, July 22, 2006 - 10:55 PM>>my main point is just that concepts like auhenticity and ego, taken for granted, make for sloppy thinking.<<
I personally would agree.
As for trying to sell one's idea of authenticity as a therapist, its really about how the client defines it, dont you think? much like "integrity," which also seems to mean something different to everyone. "normal" would be another one. "co-dependent" the list goes on. Likewise, a psychodynamic therapist is burdened with the task of attempting to know oneself as well as possible in order to bracket as many assumptions as possible. While the endeavor can never be entirely successful, the effort can be a rigorous practice. Knowing how we fill those 'empty jargon box words' with meaning is part of that coming into awareness in order to set the bias aside.
I'm not an "Existentialist" and dont claim to be any sort of informed woowoo brain about most of the contemplated world, but it is accurate that Existentialism grew out of Phenomenology, is it not? Heidegger I think. Which would help to remind us to stick with the phenomena, which seems to be what this thread has been dancing with, personal variations on the theme of authenticity. Noting the phenomina as it presents in the psychic space of the people who post here. (yes, i know you started the box metaphor, and it caught on too!) (Also avoiding the debate about dualism and platonic forms with the phenomenology thing, the split isn't necessary and "makes for sloppy thinking" but thats beyond the scope of this thread...)
Being human is an interpretation.
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Unsu...
Re: authenticity
Tue, July 25, 2006 - 6:53 AMI don't see why someone who thought that the vocabulary of Existentialism had become empty jargon among therapeutic communities would need to be worried about Phenomenology, Heidegger, or various philosophical debates.
It might be useful to approach the therapeutic use of that vocabulary through the philosophical debates that grew up around it, but I don't think that's necessary --- and probably not all that interesting to most people who find the vocabulary compelling but don't know much about those debates.
I think someone could instead simply notice, 1., that jargon is not desirable and, 2., that terms which Existentialist philosophers invented had become jargon among his community.
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Re: authenticity
Sat, July 22, 2006 - 10:58 PM>> I think in the context of therapeutic and spiritual practise it has mostly become empty jargon. A source of authority without any substance and so without any responsibility. <<
Can you say more about that?
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Re: authenticity
Sat, July 22, 2006 - 11:00 PMi dont think the horse is dead, i think it left the stable some time ago....
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